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Subject: Re: [boost] New numeric data type proposal
From: Damian Alberto Vicino (damian.vicino_at_[hidden])
Date: 20140324 14:17:38
Hi,
I’m aware of MultiPresicion types in Boost and conceptually I think they are related (and probably also related incode).
The main difference with MPFP is the accuracy and the main difference with Rational is in performance and range.
The scenario to use this type is places where accurate results are needed and a common divisor for operands used exists and is known in most operations.
The number can be expressed as QxF where Q is some kind of rational and F is some kind of float. (4 integers, Qnum, Qdenom, Mantissa, Exponente).
The Q handles the accuracy issues:
A simulation example, suppose you got 2 things ticking one 3 times per second and the other 1 time per second.
Using MPFP (in Base 10), it doesn’t matter how large precision you take, the 0.33333333 will not add up to integer numbers every 3 and some times the 3x ticks of one will not be simultaneous with the other ticking every 1 sec.
Using the native float same example happens the same. The problem is in the periodic numbers which can easily represented by rationals.
In this example the proposed numbers are represented as 1/3 * 1 and 1/3 * 3 and the Q never operates because the 2 numbers have common Q, it is reduced to compare if Q equal + same operations than using some kind of float.
Compared to Rational the difference is the flexibility of using mantisa and exponents as float to avoid modifying the Q all the time, avoiding unnecessary simplifications and having a larger representation range that which can be handled with just changing magnitude orders using the exponent.
The performance bottleneck is when the Q is different in the operators, but it is not worst than using Rationals and it only happens once in a while in the intended use cases.
Suppose, a 1/6 Q and 1/7 Q want to participate in an addition, a common divisor needs to be found before operate, both are adjusted to the new divisor.
An example of use is our simulator use case:
We got models interacting in a simulation, each model has it own Q fixed, so after linear in quantity of models operations had been done, the Q stabilises for the whole simulation and afterward we only operate on the floating point part of the number. We don’t set a global known Q at the start because models are developed in different contexts, research groups, etc we can not enforce a fixed time for everyone using a general purpose simulator, but using this method we can allow interaction easily between those models when needed with zero recoding.
Best regards,
Damian
On Mar 24, 2014, at 4:28 AM, John Maddock <boost.regex_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>> I work in a simulation tools' research group and we developed a basic data type for handling time representation that we want to share.
>> The data type is kind of a mix between MultiPresicionFloatingPoint and Rational.
>>
>> We are using this kind of data type in concrete simulator implementations because of a theoretic problem with the formalisms we implement, in which the floating point error can not be bounded.
>>
>> We published a paper in Simutools14 a few days ago explaining how this unbound errors are reached under a specific formalism (DEVS) and why they are not easy to detect. I can share the paper if someone interested in the details, or provide some toy examples to discuss. And we are working in showing same kind of errors in other formalisms.
>>
>> A simplified version of the proposed data type is:
>> Number<N, D, M, E> where in the common case the four are some integerlike type.
>> The number can be interpreted as N/D * M * 2^E where N and D are never modified unless required for operation of compatibility.
>> Compatibility operation is called when an operation between 2 numbers having different N/D happens.
>> It can also be thought as a variable radix MPFP.
>> We choose this implementation because when used as replacement of integer or float, it doesn’t decrease significantly the performance. It only decrease significantly when operating with values that were not representable in any of those (if we simplify N/D).
>>
>> I will love to discuss implementation details, alternative ideas to handle the problem (this one worked for us, but sure there is other options too that may be more generic or performant in generic scenarios).
>> Also, I’m up to code the whole thing, and to share the naive implementation we got in our simulator so far to start the discussion.
>
> This sounds interesting, though I'm not sure I understand the rationale/functionality just yet. Are you aware of Boost.Multiprecision (http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_55_0/libs/multiprecision/doc/html/index.html) and would this fit within that framework? The answer probably depends on whether you want/need the expressiontemplate framework that that library provides.
>
> Regards, John.
>
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