March 2005 - Boost - lists.boost.org

Re: uBLAS mailing list
by Ian McCulloch 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

Nikos Platis wrote: > Hi, > > Being new to uBLAS I wanted to post a message to its mailing list. > Unfortunatly, the documentation still mentions the Yahoo Group, which, > as I now find out, is not the current mailing list of the project. I > read at > http://lists.boost.org/MailArchives/ublas/msg00095.php > that the problem will be corrected with the next release, We really have to wait until the next boost release to get an important correction made to the boost web page? That sounds nuts! > but, until > then, I believe that the easiest thing to do is add a large message at > the homepage of the Yahoo Group with information pointing to the new > mailing list (I have seen such messages in other Yahoo Groups). IIRC, the problem is none of the yahoo groups administrators are active on boost anymore, in which case that is not possible. Cheers, Ian

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high_resolution_timer \ timer feature requests for Boost.Timer
by Brian Braatz 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

First off- note that Timer can take a start time on the ctor: class timer { public: timer() { _start_time = std::clock(); } // postcondition: elapsed()==0 (snip) high_resolution_timer does not however: class high_resolution_timer { public: // ctor high_resolution_timer() { start_time.QuadPart = 0; frequency.QuadPart = 0; if (!QueryPerformanceFrequency(&frequency)) throw std::runtime_error("Couldn't acquire frequency"); restart(); } (snip) MY PROBLEM: I need to feed the timer the START time (or get FROM it the start time would be preferred) The reason I need this is because for logging purposes (working with the Profiler from Christopher Diggins) I need to log the start and stop times, and I need it to (for internal cross reference) be the same number for multiple purposes. MY REQUESTS: Easy request: high_resolution_timer is changed to have the same type of ctor as timer does May Start a discussion request: That something like a starttime() method is provided for both classes Medium request- That both classes do a typedef for the type returned by the starttime method i.e. instead of class high_resolution_timer { public: (snip) private: timer t; // backup in case of QueryPerformanceCounter() bug LARGE_INTEGER start_time; LARGE_INTEGER frequency; }; You have instead: class high_resolution_timer { public: (snip) typedef LARGE_INTEGER TIME_TYPE; private: timer t; // backup in case of QueryPerformanceCounter() bug TIME_TYPE start_time; TIME_TYPE frequency; }; (for both high_resolution_timer and timer) There you go, those are my requests. Now I will sit here quietly and hope there is a Santa Claus.... (grin)

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FSM - Late Review
by jdspalding＠comcast.net 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

FSM Review - John Spalding - 2005/MAR/04 Contents - Overall impression. - my use case. - review manager's questions. ******************************* Overall Impression ******************************* I have been completly impressed by the FSM library, and recommend that it be immediately accepted into the Boost Libraries. I had been looking for a system that implemented hierarchical state machines, and never before found anything satisfactory. The ideas behind the Harel state chart had always seemed to me to have a place in standard software development. Prior to using FSM, I had read through another effort on C++ state machine development "Practical State Charts in C++", by Miro Samek, CMP Books, 2002, and found its methods unsatisfactory. I was impressed by Samek's advocacy of the utility of hierarchical state machines in software design. I am now using FSM for a modest practical project at my work, involving about 10 events and 10 states. FSM will replace a home brew non-hierarchical state machine. I like the ability to model hierarchical states and I also like the way FSM allows state networks to be constructed and modified quickly. => improvements - new user documentation <= I would add to the documentation a small section on trouble shooting the compile. When I started out, the fact that state machine connectivity was specified in templates caused me a bit of head scratching. My typical new-user mistakes resulted in lots of error messages. I would explicitly address this area, describing how connectivity errors cause compile time errors, for common state machine hook up errors. For example, if I change the "context" for just one state from the correct value to an incorrect value, I get over 90 lines of output. I think if you explicitly described a simple strategy for tracking down these connectivity problems, it would help the new user. ********************************************** Usability Evaluation - my modest use case. ********************************************** A distinguishing characteristic of this FSM library is its use of C++ templates to specify event/state connectivity. - we specify which events are handled or ignored when we are in a specified state. - we specify the sub-state network for the state machine. These are two separate connection operations. Both are specified by the class declaration for the state. A typical class template I used follows, in the example code. - the event handing connectivity is specified by the 3-rd argument to the fsm::simple_state<> template, an mpl::list of events. Simpler forms exist for the case that an event does not require special processing, however this general case is not complex. - the sub-state network is handled by the first two arguments to the fsm::simple_state<> template. The second argument simply names the "outer state", or containing state of this state. The outermost states of the finite state machine also have to instead name the controlling class, derived from fsm::state_machine. - In addition, I have provided an IFsmState<> template that implements a "GetState()" function that can be called by the state machine. I have used FSM to implement a modest sized state machine with about 10 events and 10 states. This particular state machine implements the high level application state of a data taking machine control application. In this application there are about 4 varieties of data taking. Using a common outer state Acquisition, containing the data taking states, allows me to write once the common code that causes data taking to stop. This application also monitors a significant number of conditions that require the system to take action when an abnormal condition (or hazard) occurs. This led me to have two outermost states, Hazard and NoHazard. When an abnormal condition is signalled, the hierarchy allows me to write once the code that stops data taking, and causes the system to enter the Hazard state. Bottom line, I found hierarchical state modeling to be very useful. I also found that FSM had answers for all the problems I encountered reducing the hiersrchical state machine to working code, in this relatively small example. The only "advanced" functions of FSM I utilized were state_cast<> and context<>. struct StIdle : IFsmState<StIdle>, fsm::simple_state< StIdle, StNoHazard, mpl::list< fsm::custom_reaction< EvSortEnter>, fsm::custom_reaction< EvCalEnter>, fsm::custom_reaction< EvTestEnter>, fsm::custom_reaction< EvTemplGenEnter> > > { StIdle(); ~StIdle(); fsm::result react(const EvSortEnter &); fsm::result react(const EvCalEnter &); fsm::result react(const EvTestEnter &); fsm::result react(const EvTemplGenEnter &); }; // Used for all states... struct IFsmStateQuerry { virtual const type_info & GetState() const = 0; }; // Used for all states... template<typename T> struct IFsmState : public IFsmStateQuerry { const type_info & GetState() const { return typeid(T); } }; class SystemFsm : public IFsmStateQuerry, public fsm::state_machine< SystemFsm, StNoHazard > { public: SystemFsm() { } // ... // Get state information. const type_info & GetState() const { // state_cast produces object in active state. // GetState returns type_info for that state. return state_cast< const IFsmStateQuerry & >().GetState(); } }; ***************************** Review manager's questions ***************************** What is your evaluation of the documentation? - I proposed adding a new user section, to help with compile time problems caused by state machine connect errors. - I also think the central role of the "context" parameter in simple_state<>, when specifying how to connect up all the states, could be stressed more, esp. for new users. What is your evaluation of the design? - I did not review the design implementation. - The FSM API is novel, due to template use, but I grew to like it. Are there parts of the implementation that duplicate parts of BOOST? - no, the entire FSM is novel. I did not evaluate performance bottlenecks, nor real-time aspects of usage. I did try to use the library for a practical library, and had lots of fun. (see my use case section) How much work did you put into the evaluation. - I have spent several days reviewing FSM, and have tracked it since I read about it on the boost list in 2004. - I have spent 2-3 days on the modest practical project. Domain Knowledge... - I am an "interested" user, but not an expert. I strongly believe FSM should be accepted into Boost.

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[Boost-bugs] [ boost-Patches-1157160 ] patch for boost::filesystem
by SourceForge.net 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

Patches item #1157160, was opened at 2005-03-05 07:23 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by fotzor You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=307586&aid=1157160&group_… Category: None Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Steven Weiss (fotzor) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: patch for boost::filesystem Initial Comment: hi, when you try to get the branch path of this "c:\some_dir\some_file.txt" under windows the branch path should be "c:\some_dir". what is returned instead is "c:" which isn't correct. so here's the fix: in path_posix_windows.cpp: std::string::size_type leaf_pos( const std::string & str, std::string::size_type end_pos ) // end_pos is past-the-end position // return 0 if str itself is leaf (or empty) { if ( end_pos && str[end_pos-1] == '/' ) return end_pos-1; std::string::size_type pos( str.find_last_of( '/', end_pos-1 ) ); # ifdef BOOST_WINDOWS if ( pos == std::string::npos ) pos = str.find_last_of( '\', end_pos-1 ); // ADDED if ( pos == std::string::npos ) pos = str.find_last_of( ':', end_pos-2 ); # endif return ( pos == std::string::npos // path itself must be a leaf (or empty) # ifdef BOOST_WINDOWS || (pos == 1 && (str[0] == '/' || str[0] == '\')) // or share // ADDED # endif ) ? 0 // so leaf is entire string : pos + 1; // or starts after delimiter } mfg steven ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Comment By: Steven Weiss (fotzor) Date: 2005-03-05 08:24 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=1124235 i forgot something... in branch_path() you must also change the condition of the if to: if ( end_pos && (m_path[end_pos-1] == '/' || m_path[end_pos-1] == '\') && !detail::is_absolute_root( m_path, end_pos ) ) --end_pos; else it doesn't work proper. perhaps there are other functions depending on leaf_pos() that must be adjusted as well ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=307586&aid=1157160&group_… ------------------------------------------------------- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click _______________________________________________ Boost-bugs mailing list Boost-bugs(a)lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/boost-bugs

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[Boost-bugs] [ boost-Patches-1157160 ] patch for boost::filesystem
by SourceForge.net 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

Patches item #1157160, was opened at 2005-03-05 07:23 Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=307586&aid=1157160&group_… Category: None Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Steven Weiss (fotzor) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: patch for boost::filesystem Initial Comment: hi, when you try to get the branch path of this "c:\some_dir\some_file.txt" under windows the branch path should be "c:\some_dir". what is returned instead is "c:" which isn't correct. so here's the fix: in path_posix_windows.cpp: std::string::size_type leaf_pos( const std::string & str, std::string::size_type end_pos ) // end_pos is past-the-end position // return 0 if str itself is leaf (or empty) { if ( end_pos && str[end_pos-1] == '/' ) return end_pos-1; std::string::size_type pos( str.find_last_of( '/', end_pos-1 ) ); # ifdef BOOST_WINDOWS if ( pos == std::string::npos ) pos = str.find_last_of( '\', end_pos-1 ); // ADDED if ( pos == std::string::npos ) pos = str.find_last_of( ':', end_pos-2 ); # endif return ( pos == std::string::npos // path itself must be a leaf (or empty) # ifdef BOOST_WINDOWS || (pos == 1 && (str[0] == '/' || str[0] == '\')) // or share // ADDED # endif ) ? 0 // so leaf is entire string : pos + 1; // or starts after delimiter } mfg steven ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=307586&aid=1157160&group_… ------------------------------------------------------- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click _______________________________________________ Boost-bugs mailing list Boost-bugs(a)lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/boost-bugs

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RE: [boost] high_resolution_timer \ timer featurerequests forBoost.Timerr
by Brian Braatz 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

> -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of James Fowler > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 1:10 PM > Brian Braatz wrote: > > >First off- note that Timer can take a start time on the ctor: ... > > > >high_resolution_timer does not however: ... > > > > high_resolution_timer() { ... > > if (!QueryPerformanceFrequency(&frequency)) > > throw std::runtime_error("Couldn't acquire frequency"); > >... > > > >MY PROBLEM: > > I need to feed the timer the START time (or get FROM it the start > >time would be preferred) > > > >The reason I need this is because for logging purposes (working with the > >Profiler from Christopher Diggins) I need to log the start and stop > >times, and I need it to (for internal cross reference) be the same > >number for multiple purposes. > > [Brian Braatz Writes:] My most basic problem is high_resolution_timer and boost.timer have different interfaces, one takes a time to start with the other does not. I realize the high_resolution_timer is windows only and I realize that the struct it uses to store the time is windows specific. At the simplest level I am asking for this: Have both high_resolution_timer and timer support: * Typedef's for the internal TYPE * Same construction interface using that type * Accessor method to GET to the internal data Then I could accomplish what I am trying to do- I am not just measuring things, but putting a layer on top. I can live with the issues with timers. What I am after is being able to do this- Record profile LOGS in different threads (not reports, but logs of every call that happened), spit out the approximate TIME each one of those events occurred, this gives the human reader a conceptual way to connect the different logs in time- Right now I am using hours, mins, seconds for this, getting to the internal time is one way , the other is to make a redundant call to QueryPerformanceCounter() or what have you. This probably gets into the deeper question of "are these classes supposed to have roles that extend a bit beyond just holding time duration?" If nothing else, I ask that making the interface amongst the timers be the same (same ctor style and the typedef so I can write code against either) > > > IMHO, based on the example you gave, you're mixing two separate > problems: how to capture a representation of current time, and how to > present an interface to capture durations of time. I haven't really > examined the Profiler mentioned lately in detail, so maybe you've > actually already dealt with this in the real code. If so, I'd like to > take a look, as I'm working through similar issues myself. If not, I'm > working on something that be useful to you. [Brian Braatz Writes:] Yes, I am mixing many problems. I am building something on top of Profiler (by Chris Diggings) to also do log tracing, and do it multi-threaded- So now I can see the normal profile report, AND I can also turn on DEEP TRACING which will tell me all the calls that occurred and how long they took. (the sample below doesn't show it, but I have need of getting the internal time data and using it to get a sense of "roughly" when 2 threads of execution are near-about each other- it can be a little off and that is fine) Here is some samples of what I have working: (EVENT_BEGIN and EVEN_END define the profiler objects which use RAII to engage and disengage the profile point) (sample code to test the profiler \ logger) class Fname { public: void SetText() { EVENT_BEGIN(Fname,SetText); Sleep(300); EVENT_END(Fname,SetText); } }; class EntryScreen { Fname m_FName; public: void DoSomethingElse() { EVENT_BEGIN(EntryScreen,DoSomethingElse); PROFILE_CHECKPOINT(DataBaseOperation); Sleep(1234); EVENT_END(EntryScreen,DoSomethingElse); } void DoOtherStuff() { EVENT_BEGIN(EntryScreen,DoOtherStuff); Sleep(1432); m_FName.SetText(); EVENT_END(EntryScreen,DoOtherStuff); } }; class MainWindow { EntryScreen r; public: void DoSomething() { EVENT_BEGIN(MainWindow,DoSomething); { r.DoSomethingElse(); r.DoOtherStuff(); } EVENT_END(MainWindow,DoSomething); } }; Test() { MainWindow in; In.DoSomething(); } Here is the profile REPORT: (this is what the Profiler that Mr Diggins started produces) profile total count mean percent CP-DataBaseOperation 1.230334 1 1.230334 16.392611 Fname#SetText 0.312570 1 0.312570 4.164595 MainWindow#DoSomething 2.981596 1 2.981596 39.725903 EntryScreen#DoOtherStuff 1.750382 1 1.750382 23.321574 EntryScreen#DoSomethingElse 1.230537 1 1.230537 16.395316 total entries 5 total time elapsed 7.505420 overall average 1.501084 NOW- here is the LOG DEPTH DATE TIME NAME ELAPSED 1 3/4/2005 17:06:02 MainWindow#DoSomething 2.98135 2 3/4/2005 17:06:02 EntryScreen#DoSomethingElse 1.23054 2 3/4/2005 17:06:03 EntryScreen#DoOtherStuff 1.75038 3 3/4/2005 17:06:05 Fname#SetText 0.312562 NOTE THE DEPTH COL- by reading this I can tell that: MainWindow#DoSomething ran for about 3 seconds total it called doSomethingElse- which ran for 1.2 seconds then DoSomething called DoOtherStuff() which then called SetText (the depth col makes it a tree) LONG TERM GOALS FOR ME: 1- Get this finished in my production app and working to solve some real problems 2- Merge the logging stuff with the profiler library 3- finish the process of getting this ready for boost EXTREMELY LONG TERM GOALS for the profiling library: * Use wave to parse the boost source code- and make a copy of all the code and insert the profling code INTO the boost libraries Then run the unit tests on the mangled code- spitting out performance info * integrate this with unit testing so that boost libraries can now be tested with integrated profiling Would like to see how the different libraries perform on different platforms with different compilers Would like boost to have yet something else the other libraries of the world do not (I love boost and want to help move it along in any way I can figure out) > > Here's some food for thought: > > * interface issues for capturing durations > o consistent, portable representation > o normalized conversion(s) for use in external expressions > (i.e., as double representing seconds) > o support for internal expressions (add, subtract, compare) > o variety of use cases for establishing boundary moments [Brian Braatz Writes:] (snip) I have read this mail several times and have saved it for reference, I am not a timer expert and VERY MUCH appreciate the information THANK YOU. (and yes it sounds like this work would make what I am working on better) > > Hopefully this gives a taste of the complexities surrounding the > seemingly simple task of getting a precise representation of "now". It > can be a very dangerous area to explore for anyone with perfectionistic > tendencies ;) . IMHO this is a classic "can't see the forest for the [Brian Braatz Writes:] Yes, I will be running into more of these as I move forward, I am in the basic stages right now. Fundamentally, I have an app that has some weird performance issues, and I am working on "baking in" logging and performance analysis to help debug these production issues. So my needs are *very much* from the front lines :) > trees" issue (and I've gotten lost in that forest a few times over the > years...). With the myriad possibilities for differing results driven > by the matrix of potential variation, trying to predict just how a > given combination will behave becomes an exasperating challenge. How > can we get past that? Stop trying to predict the results. Go produce > the results instead. Line up all the possible combinations that can > work on a given platform, turn them loose and take notes. Pinning exact > timing on individual moments may always involve a little uncertainty, > but analyzing average trends can lead to deeper insights and justifiable > confidence in the system overall. Some of the issues with > QueryPerformanceCounter(...) may certainly be "real", yet their impact > on the real world of your applications may prove irrelevant with a > little testing. > [Brian Braatz Writes:] I agree :) For the most part- I am LOOKING for things like this- (example) today the application took 30 seconds to perform an operation that should take 10 seconds. So the issues with realtime ARE important for me from a boost sense, but are livable for the production problem I am working on. > > > >MY REQUESTS:... > > > >There you go, those are my requests. Now I will sit here quietly and > >hope there is a Santa Claus.... > > > >(grin) > > > > > So was this less, or more, than you asked for? Although I suppose you'd > rather have it done than have it described. :) Alas, for that you'll > have to be patient, but perhaps not for long. Since I'm in the process > of writing documentation which needed to address high resolution timing > anyway, organizing my thoughts in this response probably helped me more > than it will help you! At least, until the whole package is ready to go > under the tree... > > - james [Brian Braatz Writes:] It was WAY more than I asked for, and thank you for the brain dump and stimulating discussion. :)

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RE: [boost] Re: high_resolution_timer \ timer feature requestsfor Boost.Timer
by Brian Braatz 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

I am generally doing the following- Solving my specific problem for my specific application. After I am through with that issue, I will look more at the general issues (as I ended up inheriting the profiler). For my APP- I am logging in hierarchical form the timings-(in addition to the report the profiler already does) so if you have (code is high level and pseudo) FuncB() { PROFILE POINT FUNCTION B { Sleep(1000); // 1 second } } FuncA() { PROFILE POINT FUNCTION B { Sleep(1000); // 1 second FuncB(); } } Then you will have in the profile Report (overall): FuncA took 2 seconds FuncB took 1 second But the Profile LOG (like a trace of what happened) looks like this DEPTH NAME TIME 0 FuncA 2 Seconds 1 FuncB 1 Second Does that answer your question, or am I missing something? > -----Original Message----- > From: boost-bounces(a)lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-bounces@lists.boost.org] > On Behalf Of Goran Mitrovic > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:21 AM > To: boost(a)lists.boost.org > Subject: [boost] Re: high_resolution_timer \ timer feature requestsfor > Boost.Timer > > How do you intent to deal with nested timers (outer ones might become very > inaccurate because of the inner ones)? > > Also, how do you plan to represent results of such profiling? > > > _______________________________________________ > Unsubscribe & other changes: > http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost

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Re: Adobe Open Source Library
by Sean Parent 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

> > Adobe has apparently open sourced some libraries- I (very brief) quick > look shows me: If you read my foreword <http://opensource.adobe.com/asl_foreword.html> you will see I give a great deal of credit to Boost and the libraries do depend on Boost. Although I'm not active on this list (too much traffic for me to track) - I do know many people here and have folks like Mat forward me information of interest. As for the question about the relationship of this work to Mat - ASL is the work of Adobe's Software Technology Lab - the team Mat is on, although Mat isn't working directly on these libraries at the moment - he and Alex Stepanov (another STLab member) are working hard on another project. Certainly they influence mine and Foster's work a great deal. I'd be happy to answer technical questions - either directly or though the ASL forum on SourceForge. Sean

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[Boost-bugs] [ boost-Support Requests-1156957 ] Regex
by SourceForge.net 04 Mar '05

04 Mar '05

Support Requests item #1156957, was opened at 2005-03-04 13:19 Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=207586&aid=1156957&group_… Category: None Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Regex Initial Comment: PROBLEM: ======== If I use the following code: lv_rcode = regcomp(&lr_re, ms_RegExp, REG_EXTENDED); lv_rcode = regexec(&lr_re, &lv_string[0], 1, &pm, 0); to find the following text: cm582172 Using the following regular expression [A-Z]{2}[[:space:]]*[0-9]{6}[[:space:]]* The text if found. However if I use instead the following code boost::regex regx(config.vRegx.at(iCnt).c_str()); flags = boost::match_default; boost::regex_search(start, end, what, regx, flags) With the same regular expression it does not find the string unless I use the following regular expression: [a-z]{2}[[:space:]]*[0-9]{6}[[:space:]]* The difference is the lower case of the alpha range [a-z] My question: Is there a way I can use regexec to be case sensitive for the alpha range like it is with regex_search function? Thanks, Matias ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=207586&aid=1156957&group_… ------------------------------------------------------- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click _______________________________________________ Boost-bugs mailing list Boost-bugs(a)lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/boost-bugs

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Re: [boost] Re: [congif] BOOST_BEFRIEND_TEMPLATE, BOOST_PRIVATE
by Iain Hanson 04 Mar '05

04 Mar '05

On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 10:56 -0700, Jonathan Turkanis wrote: > Iain Hanson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 23:21 +0100, JOAQUIN LOPEZ MU?Z wrote: > > > > > personally, I don't like obfuscated code. > > And you think I do? Obviously I wouldn't suggest the macros if I though it made > code harder to understand. > Sorry, I could have phrased that better. I'm afraid I let my strong dislike of macros shoow a little to much. /ikh

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