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The problems with Boost development
by Vladimir Prus 27 Mar '10

27 Mar '10

Hello, in a recent post, Dave listed a few things that he thinks are wrong with Boost development, at present, quoting: I know I'm not the first person to notice that, as Boost has grown, it has become harder and harder to manage, Subversion is getting slow, our issue tracker is full to overflowing, and the release process is a full-time job. It seems to be important, right now, to discuss whether this problems are real, and what problems are most important. So, I would like to ask that everybody who is somehow involved in *development* -- whether in writing code, triaging bugs, sending patches, or managing thing, list three most important problems with Boost now. Please keep the items to a sentence or two, so that we can easily collect the problems. Here's my take: - Unmaintained components. Many authors are no longer active, and we have no procedures for taking over. - Reviews that are getting rare and, IMO, less interesting then before. - Turnaround time of test results Thanks, Volodya

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[variant] compatibility with move-constructible objects
by Zachary Turner 26 Mar '10

26 Mar '10

I have the following rough sequence of typedefs: struct empty {}; typedef std::unique_ptr<foo> foo_ptr; typedef std::unique_ptr<bar> bar_ptr; typedef std::vector<foo_ptr> foo_ptr_vec; typedef std::vector<bar_ptr> bar_ptr_vec; typedef std::variant<empty, foo_ptr_vec, bar_ptr_vec> my_variant; I then declare an instance of my_variant in a class, and make the class moveable and noncopyable. class my_class { my_class(const my_class&); my_class& my_class(const my_class&); my_variant v_; public: my_class(my_class&& other) : v_(std::move(other.v_)) { } }; I cannot get this to compile under MSVC 10 and boost 1.42. In theory I don't see why this shouldn't be ok. Even though the objects are not copy-constructible due to unique_ptr, they are move constructible. The errors are quite long, but you can see it's trying to invoke vector::operator= from within the variant code. Is this just a technical limitation of variant, or a bug? 1> behavior_collection.cpp 1>C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 10.0\VC\include\xutility(2144): error C2248: 'behavior_collection::behavior_impl<Output>::operator =' : cannot access private member declared in class 'behavior_collection::behavior_impl<Output>' 1> with 1> [ 1> Output=kinematic_output 1> ] 1> c:\users\zach\documents\visual studio 2010\projects\dxdemo\dxdemo\behavior_collection.h(15) : see declaration of 'behavior_collection::behavior_impl<Output>::operator =' 1> with 1> [ 1> Output=kinematic_output 1> ] 1> C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 10.0\VC\include\xutility(2165) : see reference to function template instantiation '_OutIt std::_Copy_impl<_InIt,_OutIt>(_InIt,_InIt,_OutIt,std::_Nonscalar_ptr_iterator_tag)' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> _OutIt=behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output> *, 1> _InIt=behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output> * 1> ] 1> C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 10.0\VC\include\vector(719) : see reference to function template instantiation '_OutIt std::_Copy_impl<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<Output>*,behavior_collection::behavior_impl<Output>*>(_InIt,_InIt,_OutIt)' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> _OutIt=behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output> *, 1> Output=kinematic_output, 1> _InIt=behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output> * 1> ] 1> C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 10.0\VC\include\vector(709) : while compiling class template member function 'std::vector<_Ty> &std::vector<_Ty>::operator =(const std::vector<_Ty> &)' 1> with 1> [ 1> _Ty=behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/type_traits/is_pod.hpp(34) : see reference to class template instantiation 'std::vector<_Ty>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> _Ty=behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/type_traits/is_pod.hpp(129) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::detail::is_pod_impl<T>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> T=std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/type_traits/has_trivial_constructor.hpp(27) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::is_pod<T>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> T=std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/type_traits/has_trivial_constructor.hpp(36) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::detail::has_trivial_ctor_impl<T>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> T=std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/type_traits/has_nothrow_constructor.hpp(23) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::has_trivial_constructor<T>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> T=std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/type_traits/has_nothrow_constructor.hpp(32) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::detail::has_nothrow_constructor_imp<T>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> T=std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/mpl/not.hpp(41) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::has_nothrow_constructor<T>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> T=std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/mpl/aux_/preprocessed/plain/and.hpp(25) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::mpl::not_<T>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> T=boost::has_nothrow_constructor<std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/mpl/aux_/preprocessed/plain/and.hpp(55) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::mpl::aux::and_impl<C_,T1,T2,T3,T4>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> C_=true, 1> T1=boost::mpl::apply1<boost::mpl::protect<boost::detail::variant::find_fallback_type_pred>,boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>>>, 1> T2=boost::mpl::true_, 1> T3=boost::mpl::true_, 1> T4=boost::mpl::true_ 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/mpl/iter_fold_if.hpp(46) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::mpl::and_<T1,T2>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> T1=boost::mpl::not_<boost::is_same<boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>>,boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_end>>>, 1> T2=boost::mpl::apply1<boost::mpl::protect<boost::detail::variant::find_fallback_type_pred>,boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/mpl/aux_/preprocessed/plain/apply_wrap.hpp(49) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::mpl::aux::iter_fold_if_pred<Predicate,LastIterator>::apply<State,Iterator>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> Predicate=boost::mpl::protect<boost::detail::variant::find_fallback_type_pred>, 1> LastIterator=boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_end>, 1> State=boost::mpl::int_<1>, 1> Iterator=boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/mpl/aux_/preprocessed/plain/apply.hpp(63) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::mpl::apply_wrap2<F,T1,T2>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> F=boost::mpl::protect<boost::mpl::aux::iter_fold_if_pred<boost::mpl::protect<boost::detail::variant::find_fallback_type_pred>,boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_end>>>, 1> T1=boost::mpl::int_<1>, 1> T2=boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/mpl/aux_/preprocessed/plain/iter_fold_if_impl.hpp(62) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::mpl::apply2<F,T1,T2>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> F=boost::mpl::protect<boost::mpl::aux::iter_fold_if_pred<boost::mpl::protect<boost::detail::variant::find_fallback_type_pred>,boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_end>>>, 1> T1=boost::mpl::int_<1>, 1> T2=boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/mpl/aux_/preprocessed/plain/iter_fold_if_impl.hpp(102) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::mpl::aux::iter_fold_if_forward_step<Iterator,State,ForwardOp,Predicate>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> Iterator=boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>>, 1> State=boost::mpl::int_<1>, 1> ForwardOp=boost::mpl::protect<boost::mpl::next<boost::mpl::na>>, 1> Predicate=boost::mpl::protect<boost::mpl::aux::iter_fold_if_pred<boost::mpl::protect<boost::detail::variant::find_fallback_type_pred>,boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_end>>> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/mpl/iter_fold_if.hpp(94) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::mpl::aux::iter_fold_if_impl<Iterator,State,ForwardOp,ForwardPredicate,BackwardOp,BackwardPredicate>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> Iterator=boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<3>,behavior_collection::null_behavior,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>>>, 1> State=boost::mpl::int_<0>, 1> ForwardOp=boost::mpl::protect<boost::mpl::next<boost::mpl::na>>, 1> ForwardPredicate=boost::mpl::protect<boost::mpl::aux::iter_fold_if_pred<boost::mpl::protect<boost::detail::variant::find_fallback_type_pred>,boost::mpl::l_iter<boost::mpl::l_end>>>, 1> BackwardOp=boost::mpl::na, 1> BackwardPredicate=boost::mpl::always<boost::mpl::false_> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/mpl/iter_fold_if.hpp(102) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::mpl::iter_fold_if<Sequence,State,ForwardOp,ForwardPredicate>::result_' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> Sequence=boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<3>,behavior_collection::null_behavior,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>>, 1> State=boost::mpl::int_<0>, 1> ForwardOp=boost::mpl::protect<boost::mpl::next<boost::mpl::na>>, 1> ForwardPredicate=boost::mpl::protect<boost::detail::variant::find_fallback_type_pred> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/variant/variant.hpp(170) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::mpl::iter_fold_if<Sequence,State,ForwardOp,ForwardPredicate>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> Sequence=boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<3>,behavior_collection::null_behavior,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>>, 1> State=boost::mpl::int_<0>, 1> ForwardOp=boost::mpl::protect<boost::mpl::next<boost::mpl::na>>, 1> ForwardPredicate=boost::mpl::protect<boost::detail::variant::find_fallback_type_pred> 1> ] 1> C:\dev\boost\1.42.0\boost/variant/variant.hpp(1079) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::detail::variant::find_fallback_type<Types>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> Types=boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<3>,behavior_collection::null_behavior,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<2>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<kinematic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_item<boost::mpl::long_<1>,std::vector<behavior_collection::behavior_impl<dynamic_output>>,boost::mpl::l_end>>> 1> ] 1> c:\users\zach\documents\visual studio 2010\projects\dxdemo\dxdemo\behavior_collection.h(39) : see reference to class template instantiation 'boost::variant<T0_,T1,T2>' being compiled 1> with 1> [ 1> T0_=behavior_collection::null_behavior, 1> T1=behavior_collection::kinematic_behaviors, 1> T2=behavior_collection::dynamic_behaviors 1> ]

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Re: [boost] Library dependencies and intrer-library code reuse
by Brian Wood 26 Mar '10

26 Mar '10

Dave Abrahams writes: At Fri, 26 Mar 2010 03:45:51 -0700 (PDT), Vicente Botet Escriba wrote: <snip whole thread> > > > > > > > Please don't top post. > > Vicente Please don't overquote. just-for-symmetry-ly y'rs, Dave, are you aware your messages are being duplicated on the list? I've seen that a few times with others, but often it is the case with your messages. I would also appreciate it if people would stop with the top posting and excessive quoting. -- Brian Wood Ebenezer Enterprises http://webEbenezer.net (651) 251-9384

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GSoC Parallel BGP implementation
by Naresh Reddy Sankapelly 26 Mar '10

26 Mar '10

hi, I am naresh, a student pursuing B.Tech 4th year from Indian Institute of Information Technology- Allahabad, India. I am keen to get involved in open source project development as part of GSoC 2010 with Boost. I went though the ideas list provided in the site. I'm interested to work on parallel graph algorithms for BGL in particular with graph connectives project. I took this because I have worked on parallelizing graph algorithms as a part of my Parallel Computing course. I would be happy to know few things. 1. Can I work on library of my own for parallel computing like Intel's TBB ?or should I use MPI only? 2. It would be helpful for me if I can have one more student working on sequential part of graph algorithms. Is it allowed? If it is, and any one interested please reply me back. 3. Can I get few more details of Computer Vision algorithms? I look forward to your replies soon. Thanks

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Is there anyone can tell me who is in charge of the Google Summer of Code in boost community for this year
by Qingli Ma 26 Mar '10

26 Mar '10

Hello , I want to take part in the Google Summer of Code( http://socghop.appspot.com/site/home/site) but can not find who I should contact. XML is very useful.I have used Jdom,dom and SAX for XML.Therefor,I want get the boost library support XML operations better. So ,is there anyone can tell me who should I contact with to tell my ideas and ask for suggestions.

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Should Boost adopt pimpl/d-pointer as much as it can?
by Artyom 26 Mar '10

26 Mar '10

Hello, There are recently lots of discussions about current development issues. I would like to point to one small but extremely important issue (from user point of view). Boost has too many logic in header part of library, by meaning too much I mean painfully too much. I think that Boost should adopt as policy: 1) All implementation related code **should** be put in sources. 2) Any non-template based class should have opaque/d/pimpl pointer in its body. Why? I give you a simple example: one of the pearls of Boost: Boost.Asio is one of most painful libraries to use. I created a simple example of echo server written with Boost.Asio and written with a small pimpl-wrapped Boost.Asio (I had written myself as proof of concept - that uses boost.asio in implementation): http://art-blog.no-ip.info/files/asio_pimpl.tar.gz These are results of compilation times with gcc-4.3 (seconds): -O0 -O2 -O3 -O2+link asio 2.56 4.65 4.96 4.75 pimpl 0.59 0.85 0.89 0.94 diff *4.3 *5.5 *5.6 *5.05 And this is trivial echo server. When the code gets larger and bigger it becomes even more painful. For me, compilation of components based on Asio is total nightmare because of unacceptable compilation times. Another issue is executable size. I had took same echo sever placed in 10 object compiled under different namespaces once I did it with Boost.Asio and then I did it with pimpl-ed Asio. Result (liked executable size with gcc-4.3): Build Size (-Os stripped) Asio: 245K Pimpl: 190K ---------------------------- Conclusions: ============ There are too many good libraries (Asio as good example) that use headers too much or headers only, this terribly increases compilation times and makes executable sizes much bigger (this is especially relevant for embedded systems). Should Boost wellcome pimpled libraries more? I think yes. It would solve two problems: 1. It would give faster compilation times. 2. It would allow to provide changes easily without breaking compatibility (even would allow to provide backward ABI compatibility) Dear Boosters. What do you think about? Artyom

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Re: [boost] GSOC query for Heaps and Que
by Andrew Sutton 26 Mar '10

26 Mar '10

Hi Chirag, 1) Relaxed Fibbonacci Heaps by Chandrasekhar Boyapati C. Pandu Rangan > 2) Relaxed Weak Que by Amr Elmasry Claus Jensen Jyrki Katajainen > 3) Soft Heap by Bernand Chazelle > > Please tell can I add these datastuctures to my proposal for GSOC . > I think those data structures are in the spirit of the proposal. It would not be a bad idea. > I also want to add radix tree and generalized version of union find > datastructure into my proposal. > Will it be a good proposal ? > That might be a little ambitious for a 3 month project. I would try to keep your proposal a little more focused. Andrew Sutton andrew.n.sutton(a)gmail.com

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Re: [boost] [gil] Can not open test.jpg
by Mariusz Kwiczala 26 Mar '10

26 Mar '10

Christian, >>This file needs to be swapped out. Will do that next week. >Done. Thank you. >Marius, do you wanna try out it the new gil::io? It's located here: >http://gil-contributions.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/gil_2/boost/gil/extension / Will it be available in 1.43? >Let me know if you have questions, problems, etc. I have one suggestion: Gil::Io extensions do not work without required libjpeg libpng, libtiff ... There is no way to run examples from "boost_1_42_0\libs\gil\example" without required libs. There are problems to match boost::gil and "external graphlibs" i.e. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2442335/libpng-boostgil-png-infopp-null-n ot-found I think that libjpeg libpng, libtiff libs should be included into boost and compiled with use bjam. Regards, Mariusz

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Re: [boost] [transact] code in sandbox
by vicente.botet 26 Mar '10

26 Mar '10

----- Original Message ----- From: <strasser(a)uni-bremen.de> To: "vicente.botet" <vicente.botet(a)wanadoo.fr> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 2:00 AM Subject: Re: Re:[boost] [transact] code in sandbox > Zitat von "vicente.botet" <vicente.botet(a)wanadoo.fr>: >> IMO the transaction must be accesible during the handling of the exceptions. > > why? I see one reason in your examples (although I don't understand > force_to_abort, maybe that's another one, see below), and that is > committing on exception: > >>>> #define BOOST_TRANSACT_BASIC_RETHROW(TXMGR, TX, E) \\ >>>> catch (E&) {(TX).commit(); throw;} > > why can't the user create his own try/catch block for that?: > (using your syntax) > BOOST_TRANSACT_ATOMIC(_) { > try{ > ... > }catch(my_exc &){ > _.commit(); > } > }BOOST_TRANSACT_COMMIT(); Yes this is always possible. However, transactions and exception handling are used for the same goal, recover from errors. Thus it is interesting to handle them in the same way and in a single try-cactch block. >> _.force_to_abort(); > > what does this do? retry the transaction but make sure it fails? why? > why don't you just go ahead and throw an exception that is not caught > inside the transaction scope? When the user wants to undo whatever the transacton block did, the simple way is to abort the transaction. Don't forget that transactions can be used in a single-threaded application to make exception-safe code. >>> at some point I think the macros loose their benefit and you might >>> just as well write the loop yourself. e.g. if you need to execute >>> custom code on retry. >> >> You are right. The specific macros are not important. What is >> important is that the provided macros can be extended naturaly. > > that's what I'm not so sure of. if you need to control the number of > retries or execute custom code on retry, why don't you just write this > instead of using macros: > > for(int c=0;c<10;++c){ > try{ > transaction tx; > ... > tx.commit(); > break; > }catch(isolation_exceotion &e){ > e.unwind(); > std::cerr << "my custom retry code\n"; > } > } > > doesn't seem a whole lot more verbose to me. > but I'm not against adding more macros for convenience. the one thing > I would like is not complicating the simplest use case. the user > shouldn't have to to add something like "(_)" if he doesn't need it > and has no idea what it is there for. the default use case should be > as simple as possible. I would like also to don't need to add a transaction variable name. I need the name of the transaction variables to implement break and continue in a language-like. From my side, the inclusion of the macros is to be close to what the user will write if the language provided some specific transaction constructs. The user is always free to use directly the class interface. The question is what is the simple case. for an INNER transaction Boost.STM provides a macro #define BOOST_STM_USE_ATOMIC(TX) \ for (boost::stm::transaction TX; \ ! TX.committed() \ && TX.restart(); \ TX.commit()) that the user ca use like BOOST_STM_USE_ATOMIC(_) { // transaction statement } In this case every exception scape the transaction block, and will be managed by the outer transaction block. This is simple, recall a possible language statement transaction { // transaction statements } The parameter is needed only if we want to return from the transaction block. If needed we can add a simple #define BOOST_STM_INNER_TRANSACTION \ for (boost::stm::transaction __TX; \ ! __TX.committed() \ && __TX.restart(); \ __TX.commit()) use as follows BOOST_STM_INNER_TRANSACTION { // transaction statement } As I said in a preceding post, we can provide initialy both sets of macros and see which set the users use more often. Best, Vicente

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About adding XML API in the boost.
by Qingli Ma 26 Mar '10

26 Mar '10

Hello,everyone! I am from china and want to take part in the boost commnnity. Support for XML is limited in boost, so I want to do something about this. Also I see some information at https://svn.boost.org/trac/boost/wiki/SoC2010. I wish to take part in the Google Summer of Code(http://socghop.appspot.com/). Can you give me some ideas about that?Who should I contact with? Thank you for your sugguestion!

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