Subject: [boost] [Review] Boost.Convert, review manager analysis
From: Edward Diener (eldiener_at_[hidden])
Date: 2011-05-06 11:01:06
As previously stated Vladimir Batov decided to withdraw his library at
the end of the review period from consideration for inclusion into Boost
and I had announced this and the fact that because of this the library
would not be accepted.
Nonetheless I want to give my analysis of the reviews and the issues
both pro and con of the reviewers. I also want to give some of my own
thinking on these issues.
There were few reviews of the library but much late discussion in the
final day of the review period and just afterward.
There were 2 reviews which voted to accept Convert ( Artyom Bellis,
Alfredo Correa ), 3 reviews which voted not to accept Convert ( Jeroen
Habraken, Thomas Heller, Hartmut Kaiser ), 1 review which would have
accepted Convert but qualified that only if lexical_cast could not be
extended instead ( Rob Stewart ), 1 review which would have accepted
Convert with large scale changes ( Gordon Woodhull ), and one mention,
not a formal review, of acceptance until something else came along but
with perhaps a later change of mind ( Paul Bristow ). There was also one
review sent to me personally by Barend Gehrels, after Vladimir Batov
withdrew his library, which voted not to accept Convert. There were also
a number of people who raised doubts and objections to Convert in
various ways without giving a formal review.
It is all these issues raised by reviewers and commenters I want to
discuss next. Vladimir Batov was responsive to nearly all of those
issues but I want to enumerate them and give my own thoughts about them
as I read reviews and comments.
A number of people wanted lexical_cast to be extended instead of a new
library. This certainly is a valid viewpoint. But I believe that the
lexical_cast library is set as it is until someone takes it over from
its original author and is willing to change it. I think it is better to
review the library under discussion rather than to hope that something
else can be changed in the future.
There was an issue of the basic syntax which many people did not like.
Instead of the syntax of 'convert<dest>::from(source)' there were a
number of people who wanted to see 'convert<dest>(source)' instead,
largely becaused it matched the 'lexical_cast<dest>(source)' syntax.
Vladimir Batov explained why he used the syntax he did. I think in this
case it is reasonable. Again this is an issue in relation to
lexical_cast, and I saw no real significant difference between the
syntaxes on a basis of practical use.
The main issue brought out by many people is whether a single function
can encompass successfully all of the functionality which Convert wished
to encompass and whether this functionality both worked smoothly with
everything others wished to do with the functionality. Here there were
many valid objections and I will attempt to enumerate them:
1) The return value of the convert function is really many different
returns, and this is done through implicit conversions of the actual
return type. This was mentioned most eloquently by Thomas Heller. It is
quite natural to assume that the return value of a successful call to
'convert<dest>::from(source)' would be a 'dest' object but instead it is
a value which has an implicit conversion to 'dest'. This works when
passing the value to ordinary functions but does not when passing the
value to template functions. As Vladimir Batov mentioned one can use the
'value()' member function of the return value, and presumably also one
can use a 'static_cast<dest>' also, to force the exact 'dest' object to
be passed, but I also viewed this as a negative way to work, and a very
valid objection to the way Convert was designed. To me it was not just a
matter of confusion to the end-user but of a naturalness of use. A
convert-type interface should have some function where, if the convert
is successful, the actual result of the conversion is returned, and not
some intermediate value with an implicit conversion.
2) The Convert library uses a stream-based method to do conversions but
wanted to leave the door open for other methods. Part of the extended
syntax of the library works with stream manipulators and locales. A very
valid point was brought up, again by Thomas Heller, that it is not clear
how the extended syntax is supposed to work with and affect non-stream
based specializations of the basic convert template. Even the method of
extending the library in this way, rather than just providing
stream-based operators for a given type, is open to much doubt as valid
C++ and largely left unexplained in the documentation.
3) The syntax for the stream-based and locale additions to the library's
functionality was found odd by many people. The term 'wacky' was often
used and Vladimir Batov did defend his choice about it well.
Nonetheless it is a valid issue to consider whether the extended syntax
is easy for a person to use. I found the syntax for using iostream
manipulators quite natural, and the syntax for locales and other
functionality such as throwing behavior less natural. Again I do not
want to get too caught up in syntactical issues but I did understand the
issues brought up by others regarding this.
4) The method of using the convert function in algorithms was
criticized. Some people expressed their wish that a placeholder syntax,
as used by other Boost libraries, be used. I actually found the way
Convert does this as pretty elegant, there were two syntaxes which
worked, but could understand others liking for the placeholder syntax.
5) The use of a default value, the issue of a default constructor, and
the differing results when a conversion fails or not, received much
discussion, especially at the official end of the review period and
afterward, and I appreciate reading all of the discussions. I do not
want to specifically go into each one, other than to say that I think
this has basically to do with the issue of having a single function do
everything which could not easily cover all the different scenarios
mentioned for actual use.
There were other valid concerns which are related to just a need for
more complete documentation. Vladimir Batov responded to most of them.
Here I will enumerate them:
1) Rob Stewart in his review mentioned many documentation corrections
related to grammar, spelling etc.
2) What locale is being used by default is not explained.
3) The reference is very incomplete.
4) The section for extending the library is unclear and incomplete.
Finally there were valid concerns relating to getting Convert to work
properly. Some of these related Convert and lexical_cast and noted the
differences. A few others mentioned things which just did not work
properly in the actual conversion and again Vladimir Batov said he would
look at these issues. Barend Gehrels sent me a late review, which he did
not want to post to the mailing list because Vladimir Batov had already
withdrawn is library, in which he said that he had some technical
problems adapting a Boost.Geometry type to work with Convert. I think
these are all technical issues which can be resolved.
Many other people had specific incisive remarks during the review period
but I can not list them all. That does not mean those remarks were
ignored by me in any way, as I read and attempted to digest what
everyone had to say.
I would like to bring some clarity to the issues which may have forced
Vladimir Batov to essentially withdraw his library at the end of the
review period from consideration and which led to much comment and
criticism about the library. This is my purely personal take on the
library, but it is based on my technical understanding of the issues
The main issue with the library is that the 'single function fits all
scenarios' works much less well in practical use than the author
supposed, even as I understood the reason for simplicity which caused
him to pursue this path.
There really needs to be a function that simple returns the converted
value upon success. Overloaded versions of that function, or differently
named functions, can return other specific things. Where there is a
great attraction to a return value which can be implicitly converted to
other values, I think this attraction given practical use is somewhat
While I did not enjoy some of the harsher remarks made by Thomas Heller
in his review of the library about the design of Convert ( and I do not
think he really meant them as harshly as they may have sounded ) he did
rightly point out that the 'overloaded' return value is an impediment to
a cleaner design which would allow one to use the right convert function
given the possibilities which the library wants to accomplish.
I know there has been many subsequent discussions about a set of
functions that can replace the single function in Convert depending on
how Convert can be used, and I do not myself want to get in the middle
of this debate, but once there is an understanding of what needs to be
done, I really think the library can be designed to appeal to end-users
in a better way.
The second issue in my mind is that the library attempts to do too much
given the way it was designed. If the focus is simply a library which
does stream-based conversion between strings and objects ( both ways ) I
personally think it would be much better. Once you look for non-stream
based conversions you have to consider more carefully how the
stream-based syntax and locales should be integrated with the library.
Once you look for type to type conversions rather than string to type
and type to string conversions you have to design a good general
facility for specifying how this is done within the functions you
provide. This is a much bigger job of thinking about design, unless you
are simply providing a very generalized shell with little real
functionality built-in. I am not saying the author of the library has
not thought about these issues, but my impression is that they have not
been addressed carefully.
Just in case anyone wanted to know, and also so that Vladimir Batov does
not feel so bad about withdrawing the library from consideration at the
end of the review period, I would have rejected the library for
inclusion into Boost given the reviews and comments of others and my own
perceptions of the issues involved. But I think the author has still
done a fine job and is close to having a library which could be included
as a part of Boost.
Although it is hard work, it has been a pleasure to be a review manager
of this library and I thank everyone involved and especially the author
of the Convert library himself.
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