RE: [boost] Random numbers

From: Reid Sweatman (drunkardswalk_at_[hidden])
Date: 2003-09-10 00:29:30

Since it's already top-posted, I'll keep it that way, or it'll really get
confusing.  I think I'm a little more clear on what you're talking about,
but still not sure.  Okay, no external device, just software.  But not a
pseudo-random number generator (PRNG), i.e., one that, given the same
starting state, always produces the same sequence of numbers, right?  To do
that, you *have* to have some source of entropy, and you've just said, it's
not hardware.  That seems to leave something like Schneier's Yarrow, right?
Or am I still missing something?  There was a thread on the topic some
little while ago that should turn up in the archives.  As I recall, I
proposed including Yarrow, and others raised some pretty good points in
rebuttal, so it never happened.  Is this the kind of thing you're talking
about?  Using various mensurable things on the computer, such as timing
variations between keystrokes, variations in network response times, the
contents of various machine registers and memory locations at particular
times (many ways to vary when they're read), to feed an "entropy pool,"
which is churned continuously and tapped as needed?  This is the basic idea
behind Yarrow, the original paper on which should still be available at
www.counterpane.com.  Or am I misunderstanding you still?  I'm confused in
that you say you're "not using noise when creating."  There *must* be some
source of entropy, of randomness, since, as you noted, any purely software
algorithm is completely deterministic.  (Incidentally, reproducibility of a
"random" stream is a plus in some kinds of application).

Reid

> -----Original Message-----
> From: boost-bounces_at_[hidden]
> [mailto:boost-bounces_at_[hidden]]On Behalf Of Baris KAYGISIZER
> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 4:26 AM
> To: Boost mailing list
> Subject: Re: [boost] Random numbers
>
>
> Hi Reid,
>
> Yes, i am using Outlook Express. i defined plain text this e-mail. I hope,
> no problem. That i mean; Some computer programs generate random numbers
> without using outside device/machine/or whatever. These random numbers are
> not real, not casual. Because, only computer programs generate same random
> numbers always. True random number generators are using noise amplifier,
> thermal noise, etc. that i read lots of article. This is the
> similer that i
> made my generator. I am not using noise when creating.
>
> kindest
>
> Baris.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Reid Sweatman
> To: Boost mailing list
> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 3:13 AM
> Subject: RE: [boost] Random numbers
>
>
> First, sorry for the top-post; Outlook likes them, and it's hard to defeat
> its HTML formatting.  On to the meat.  What do you mean when you
> say "Random
> numbers sources are not computer program"?  That you're using machine
> properties as an entropy source?  Or that you have an attached device that
> supplies entropy, say like something that amplifies transistor junction
> noise?  It's hard to evaluate your proposal when you're not sure what it's
> proposing.
>
> Reid Sweatman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: boost-bounces_at_[hidden]
> [mailto:boost-bounces_at_[hidden]]On
> Behalf Of Baris KAYGISIZER
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 8:54 AM
> To: boost_at_[hidden]
> Subject: [boost] Random numbers
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> i have a question. i am working on a random numbers in last 2
> weeks. Who can
> use the random numbers or who wants? I can create real random
> numbers. Real
> random numbers mean: Random numbers sources are not computer program. Who
> wants to use these?
>
> Thx.
>
>
> Baris KAYGISIZER
> baris.kaygisizer_at_[hidden]
>
>
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