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Subject: Re: [boost] [locale] Formal review of Boost.Locale library EXTENDED
From: Artyom (artyomtnk_at_[hidden])
Date: 2011-04-19 08:25:13

> From: Ryou Ezoe <boostcpp_at_[hidden]> > > There are many Japanese translated softwares, because there are many > Japanese translators who contributed the free software. > The gettext works for translating English software to other languages > such as Japanese. > But you can't use gettext in Japanese software. > > Using English as a primary language means it's not a Japanese software >anymore. > > Most Japanese cannot even write "File this is bad format". > We don't even know what "file" means. > Just like you don't know what ファイル means without using the machine >translation. > You can look it up the meaning from dictionary, but it still a > completely unfamiliar symbols. > Just like you feel from ファイル. > ファイル means file. > Now you know what ファイル means. > Does that makes you write 「不正なファイル形式です」 ? > I don't think so. > > How could we, the Japanese write a code? > I think we don't recognize the meaning of function name like fopen by English. > It's just a unique identifier for a function that does ファイルを開く(open the file) > > Even if all programmer use English(that is impossible), It's not only > the programmer who write texts in the software. > Many texts in the software are written by non-programmers. > Do you force English to them too? > By some miracle, if you could somehow achieved that, why do we need > translation in that ideal world? > Everybody use English. No translation is needed. Isn't it? > > This library can be used only by people who's language can be > expressed by using basic source character set. > Isn't it flawed considering this is a localization library? > > You're saying that, in order to localize the software, you need to > abandon your language for the start. > That will never works. > I understand that we are going to phylosofical discussions, but yet there few things that I don't get: > We don't even know what "file" means. ... > How could we, the Japanese write a code? The problem is not only simple messages like 「不正なファイル形式です」 "illegal file format" but rather much more basic things: 1. How do you read man-pages? 2. How do you read MSDN docs? 3. How do you read the documentation of Boost Libraries? 4. How do you solve problems you hand't seen? Do you really can find all answers in Google in Japanese? 5. How do you talk to customers outside Japan? I'm not trying to tell you don't speak Japanese. Ohh not! I love being able to use software adopted to my culture I believe that culture diversity is very important and should be preserved and not "Globalized" by putting English anywhere... I hate that some "globalized" bad habits sometime kill-off some correct behavior and good language. But this has nothing to do with writing software. You know (read) that my English is far from being perfect - you read my manuals in my "Hebrew English", but still you mostly understand what you write and I still understand what Japanese people write in "their English dialect" And I still thing it is correct way to write the original messages in English even it may be hard sometimes. I can suggest a little experiment: Take these several messages: - "Bad file format! The program wasn't able to open it correctly" - "You have no more space on disk, please specify other location to save the file" - "The compilation had failed, no '}' found at the end of the file" Translate them to Japanese and ask several co-workers that are average C++ programmers capable of using Boost libraries to write them in English without using any dictionaries or google-translate. Record how much time had that took for them. I don't know the area you are working in, so I can't create specific messages for your domain, but consider if you were working in image I'd give a message like "Change the brightness of the picture" Of course take something that is valid for the domain of your work. If I can see that average employed C++ programmers can't write understandable messages in English I promise that I'll think about the solution for next version of the Boost.Locale regardless if it is going to be accepted to the Boost or not. But please, try to do it in objective way. Artyom --------------------------------------------- > > You know what, I'm not going to tell > > you what are best practices and what > > are the good ways to do things. > > > > (See appendix below) > > > > You'll probably disagree with them, > > > > But lets face the facts > > > > You telling > > > > > >> Ryou Ezoe Wrote: > >> > >> Insisting English knowledge is not practical. > >> Most Japanese C++ programmers don't know English at all. > >> Worse, it will cause serious problem. > >> > > > >> I bet Non-english people will use this library with non-english language. > >> > >> translate("日本語") > >> > >> [snip] > >> > >> As a Japanese, I think this library better be rejected. > >> > >> > > > > > > Lets appeal to facts. > > > > I have a simple Debian machine with > > various software installed. > > > > I've checked how many applications (gettext-domains) > > has translation files for different languages > > > > [snip] > > > > As you can see, Japanese is in top 10 at 9th > > place. > > > > Given that Japanese speaking population > > is relatively small I can't buy it that > > gettext is not good for Japanese... > > > > Any more comments?

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