Re: [boost] [locale] Formal review of Boost.Locale library EXTENDED

Subject: Re: [boost] [locale] Formal review of Boost.Locale library EXTENDED
From: Artyom (artyomtnk_at_[hidden])
Date: 2011-04-19 08:25:13

> From: Ryou Ezoe <boostcpp_at_[hidden]>
> 
> There are many Japanese translated softwares, because there are many
> Japanese  translators who contributed the free software.
> The gettext works for  translating English software to other languages
> such as Japanese.
> But you  can't use gettext in Japanese software.
> 
> Using English as a primary  language means it's not a Japanese software 
>anymore.
> 
> Most Japanese cannot  even write "File this is bad format".
> We don't even know what "file"  means.
> Just like you don't know what ファイル means without using the machine  
>translation.
> You can look it up the meaning from dictionary, but it still  a
> completely unfamiliar symbols.
> Just like you feel from ファイル.
> ファイル  means file.
> Now you know what ファイル means.
> Does that makes you write  「不正なファイル形式です」 ?
> I don't think so.
> 
> How could we, the Japanese write a  code?
> I think we don't recognize the meaning of function name like fopen by  
English.
> It's just a unique identifier for a function that does ファイルを開く(open  the file)
> 
> Even if all programmer use English(that is impossible), It's  not only
> the programmer who write texts in the software.
> Many texts in the  software are written by non-programmers.
> Do you force English to them  too?
> By some miracle, if you could somehow achieved that, why do we  need
> translation in that ideal world?
> Everybody use English. No  translation is needed. Isn't it?
> 
> This library can be used only by people  who's language can be
> expressed by using basic source character set.
> Isn't  it flawed considering this is a localization library?
> 
> You're saying that,  in order to localize the software, you need to
> abandon your language for the  start.
> That will never works.
> 

I understand that we are going to phylosofical discussions, but
yet there few things that I don't get:

> We don't even know what "file"  means.
...
> How could we, the Japanese write a  code?

The problem is not only simple messages
like 「不正なファイル形式です」 "illegal file format"
but rather much more basic things:

1. How do you read man-pages?
2. How do you read MSDN docs?
3. How do you read the documentation of Boost Libraries?
4. How do you solve problems you hand't seen? Do you
   really can find all answers in Google in Japanese?
5. How do you talk to customers outside Japan?

I'm not trying to tell you don't speak Japanese. Ohh not!

I love being able to use software adopted to my culture
I believe that culture diversity is very important
and should be preserved and not "Globalized" by
putting English anywhere...

I hate that some "globalized" bad habits sometime 
kill-off some correct behavior and good language.

But this has nothing to do with writing software.

You know (read) that my English is far from being
perfect - you read my manuals in my "Hebrew English",
but still you mostly understand what you write
and I still understand what Japanese people write in 
"their English dialect"

And I still thing it is correct way to write
the original messages in English even it may
be hard sometimes.


I can suggest a little experiment:


Take these several messages:

- "Bad file format! The program wasn't able to open it correctly"

- "You have no more space on disk, please specify other location to
   save the file"

- "The compilation had failed, no '}' found at the end of the file"

Translate them to Japanese and ask several co-workers
that are average C++ programmers capable of using Boost
libraries to write them in English without using
any dictionaries or google-translate.

Record how much time had that took for them.

I don't know the area you are working in, so I
can't create specific messages for your domain,
but consider if you were working in image
I'd give a message like 

   "Change the brightness of the picture"

Of course take something that is valid for
the domain of your work.

If I can see that average employed C++
programmers can't write understandable
messages in English I promise that I'll think about
the solution for next version of the 
Boost.Locale regardless if it is going
to be accepted to the Boost or not.

But please, try to do it in objective way.

Artyom

---------------------------------------------

> > You know what, I'm not going to tell
> > you what are  best practices and what
> > are the good ways to do things.
> >
> >  (See appendix below)
> >
> > You'll probably disagree with  them,
> >
> > But lets face the facts
> >
> > You  telling
> >
> >
> >> Ryou  Ezoe Wrote:
> >>
> >>  Insisting English knowledge is not practical.
> >> Most Japanese C++  programmers  don't know English at all.
> >> Worse, it will cause serious  problem.
> >>
> >
> >> I bet  Non-english people will use this  library with non-english 
 language.
> >>
> >>  translate("日本語")
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> As a  Japanese, I think this  library better be  rejected.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Lets appeal to  facts.
> >
> > I have a simple Debian machine with
> > various  software installed.
> >
> > I've checked how many applications  (gettext-domains)
> > has translation files for different  languages
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > As you can see,  Japanese is in top 10 at 9th
> > place.
> >
> > Given that Japanese  speaking population
> > is relatively small I can't buy it that
> >  gettext is not good for Japanese...
> >
> > Any more  comments?